> This isn't really as ambiguous as you present it to be, the obvious answer is "when you do it to them unprovoked, that's what distinguishes bullying from self-defense".

I agree if I believe I did it to them unprovoked, then it would be bullying; however, how often do you think a person believes they're doing it to someone unprovoked? The receiver may believe it's unprovoked, but I'd imagine the person delivering the blow in that moment may think it was provoked. I don't think most people will self-identify as a bully, but I may be wrong about that.

Also, with regards to self-defense, in the Krav Maga and other self-defense courses I've taken, there's a lot of talk about legality of self-defense and how if one's actions tip over into being too aggressive, it can go from being self-defense to assault very quickly and become illegal. So even in physical self-defense cases, who is the defender and aggressor can change quickly depending on perspective.

> Have you ever tried what you're preaching with real childhood bullies?

Hmm, maybe not real childhood bullies because I started focusing on this in my mid-20s, however I can give one story from a few years ago. I went to a picnic with my ex-girlfriend and her family was there. First time meeting the family. One of the distant cousins came up and offered me a drink. I said I had just made a deal with myself I wouldn't drink alcohol for a month and it was just the first week. He said that he didn't know me and I was new to the culture and in his culture they make drinks for people. I said no, I didn't want an alcoholic drink. He said that he makes the drink for me to know how to trust me, if I won't take it, how will he know to trust me, it's a matter of respect. I told him:

"Listen, I made a deal with myself I wouldn't drink alcohol for a month. So while I want to respect you, I also want to respect myself."

The guy stopped trying to guilt me into taking a drink and I think walked away.

So while it may not be as an extreme example of what kids can do to each other or other adults can do, I think it may show that there are ways to resolve such conflicts with words that aren't playing therapist so much as expressing indignation and anger and strong confidence in what we want, without demonizing the other side for what they want.

> The receiver may believe it's unprovoked, but I'd imagine the person delivering the blow in that moment may think it was provoked. I don't think most people will self-identify as a bully, but I may be wrong about that.

Practically every story in this thread, notably including your own, was unprovoked. An extremely common theme is that bullies pick weak targets, if the victim fights back they pick another target. There's no provocation involved.

It doesn't matter whether a bully internally believes their actions are justified, there are basic facts and societal standards. If I beat you up for looking at me funny and I say it's justified because you provoked me with your glance, that's unreasonable nonsense and claiming subjectivity doesn't suddenly make me sympathetic.

> there's a lot of talk about legality of self-defense and how if one's actions tip over into being too aggressive, it can go from being self-defense to assault very quickly and become illegal

The legal world of adults actually has teeth in penalizing violence which doesn't really apply to the world of children. Not only would child victims be exempt from adult laws when fighting back, it is in their best interest to do so because their bullies are also exempt from adult laws in their violence against the victim. That means that victims can expect to be bullied in the future since they aren't protected by laws like adults are.

If your only point here is that fighting back can go too far, guess what, so can bullying.

> I think it may show that there are ways to resolve such conflicts with words

I don't think anyone here is saying that conflicts cannot be resolved with words, the point in contention here is whether it solves anything for bullied children. I can't even honestly characterize your anecdote as bullying, at no point was harm threatened or even implied. When a group of teen classmates corner you and threaten to beat you up if you don't give them your lunch money, do you honestly believe a confident remark about mutual respect can be a solution there?

> Practically every story in this thread, notably including your own, was unprovoked.

I read this and see that you believe that they were unprovoked, not that every human would see them as unprovoked and therefore are objectively unprovoked. Maybe you don't think there's a difference between the two, but for me, I strongly believe not everyone would see these as completely unprovoked. I have a friend whose husband threatened to kill her and she left him and her kids behind to flee for her life. When she was telling me how they'd fight, she'd tell me he would get angry at her and then she'd go quiet and then he would shout and then she would avoid him for a few days, giving the silent treatment. She didn't seem to think that her silent treatment was provoking him at all, she just focused on how his anger was the violence.

> If I beat you up for looking at me funny and I say it's justified because you provoked me with your glance, that's unreasonable nonsense and claiming subjectivity doesn't suddenly make me sympathetic.

I'm not saying I justify their behavior, it's more about whether I want it to stop in the future.

> The legal world of adults actually has teeth in penalizing violence which doesn't really apply to the world of children.

I'm not sure that's true. Kids, especially teens in the US, have definitely been charged for assault and other crimes of physical violence in schools. Now, I may agree that it's less likely they'll be charged than two adults hitting each other in a bar, but I don't think they're completely exempt from such laws, at least in most parts of the US.

> I can't even honestly characterize your anecdote as bullying, at no point was harm threatened or even implied.

Perhaps for me bullying includes teasing and verbal attacks that cut someone down, and for you you're more focused on the physical assault part of bullying. So yes, then what I described did not involve a threat of physical violence and wouldn't fit in your definition of bullying and may be why we disagree on this.

> When a group of teen classmates corner you and threaten to beat you up if you don't give them your lunch money, do you honestly believe a confident remark about mutual respect can be a solution there?

I believe a confident remark about mutual respect could prevent the situation from escalating to that level of physical threat. Now, do I believe that sometimes the situation has escalated too far? Yes. Do I think that if someone is throwing a punch at my face that I'll stop it with words? No. I'll probably do my best to block the punch and grab his arm and twist it behind his back or something of the like. But then I may try to talk about how I don't want to fight and I'm confused why he keeps picking on me and maybe he's having a rough day and I'd prefer if we talked about what was going on so neither of us gets more hurt.